Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: Dave the plumber on January 19, 2012, 08:13:25 PM
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I'm starting another new thread, as it seems the last one with the Mullane is going off on a Schenkl tangent.
I have seen the tin plates on two Schenkl's with original plaster sabot's. Basically, they are flat, with no attachment points. No photo's in my reserve, sorry
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Dave,
I know you meant paper mache and not plaster sabots.
John
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I may have not made myself clear, and thank you for posting the tin base info above. I had speculated that possibly there was a tin base we hadn't seen, which might have had attachment, but was pure speculation, based on not all the dyers had the straps, but some did. Possibly not all shells were equiped the same as technology evolved over the war. All three off these posts are based on similar discussions. Could shells have fixed and unfixed ammo, is that what the unexplained ring grooves were for, or maybe they were for something we haven't even thought of yet. fun isn't it, we are archeologists trying to interprete the uses of our finds!!!! can you imagine trying to prove or disapprove something from 10,000bc? lol we at least have several examples to examine. yoy'all realize that there is never going to be an absolute answer for these posts don't you?
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John, paper mache is correct, not plaster.
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Ooopppss.... I must be lost...over here in the iron-head area. :o
Here's a pic of a zinc base from a schenkl. I got this in a relic box somewhere. Dean has found at least one of these, only much larger, probably 20- or 30-pdr size, from up on Maryland Heights. These are awful fragile, I doubt they were for anything more than holding the paper mache in place.
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Jim,
I would think their primary purpose was to be a barrier to water/water vapor.
Oh, and welcome over to the dark side! Glad to have you. You and Dean might like the lead but I know y'all have dug some nice iron too!
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Could be just to give a little support at the initial blast, even a thin plate would be better than shattering the paper sabot. How snug does the center hole fit the knob? would there be enough clearance to accomodate a fixed charge bag, or is it snug. I know its an off the wall thought, but what if this was actually a retainer? and no I'm not saying it is, just trying to eliminate possibilities. Once again noy sure of its actual purpose. maybe also related to the manufacturing of the sabot.
right or wrong push a button and some garbage comes out of my head lol
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Thanks Jim for posting the zinc plate. What caliber was this for and thick was it?
Dear Allen,
The zinc plate's purpose is to push the paper mache into the grooves as the forward movement of the shell tends to push the sabot to the rear. As soon as the Schenkl leaves the bore the sabot flys apart makng it popular with the forward infantry.
Soeey Dave we are again out of the Tennessee post.
John
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Over in Dave's "3 Inch Mullane" post discussion, John D. bartleson Jr. wrote:
> I have not seen a pristine Schenkl complete with a perfect sabot. Perhaps someone
> has such a speciman?
And Alwion wrote:
> I also don't remember a complete Schenkl [sabot] to look at, anyone got a mint example?
I do not have any digital photos showing a fully-intact Schenkl sabot, but three books show it.
Dickey-&-George 1993 Edition, pages 297, 418, 419, 424
Bell's book, pages 369, 370, 373, 374, 520
Melton-&-Pawl paperback, page 76
Also, one 3" specimen is viewable online, at civilwarartillery.com, under Field Projectiles > Rifled Projectile
John P. Schenkl's paper-mache sabot performed excellently until its secret "recipe" (telling the exact proportions of its ingredients was lost, due to inventor's J.P. Schenkl's accidental death in early 1863. The sabot's manufacturer tried to duplicate the formula but the resulting sabot was brittle and also tended to absorb humidity from the air, causing it to swell badly. To prevent the humidity-absorption, the manufacturer tried covering the sabot from top to bottom with a long sleeve made of zinc sheetmetal. But that didn't fix the brittleness problem, so Schekl projectiles rapidly fell out of favor with the Army by the end of 1863. (For example, only a very tiny number of Schenkls was used in the Atlanta Campaign.) Therefore, Hotchkiss shells became the predominant ammunition for 3" Ordnance Rifles in 1864-65 campaigns.
In some of the photos in the various books mentioned above, you will see two "soft metal" bands, one at the top of the sabot, the other at its base. The photo posted by Jim T shows that after the zinc sleeve was introduced, the bottom "band" was part of the thin zinc base-cover disc. One photo in the 1993 Dickey-&-George book, page 418, shows the long "full coverage" zinc sheetmetal sleeve. Also, it is very noteworthy that several photos in Bell's book show NON-DUG Schenklsabots bo bands and no covering of any kind on the sabot.
About "Fixed" Schenkl ammunition:
One photo in the Belll book (page 373) shows a pristine-condition non-dug 6.4"-caliber Schenkl which has a thick rope encircling it's tail-knob, right up against the paper-mache sabot's bottom. There seems to be no other purpose for that rope than tying on a powderbag.
Also, perhapsregarding "Fixed" field-caliber Schenkl ammunition:
About 20 years ago, a friend of mine (Jess Myer) dug a cache of about a dozen unfired 3" Schenkl Percussion shells, near Danville VA. Those unfired Schenkl shells had very-significant amounts of the sabot preserved on them. Each of them showed sizeable portions of canvas powderbag "fossilized" on the Schenkl sabot. Apparently the powderbag was either tied or glued onto the sabot's main body, because the canvas powderbag does seem to have extended "over" the sabot, not just affixed to its base. (And, perhaps that is the answer to how a powderbag was affixed to Hotchkis shells.)
Regards,
Pete
Regards,
Pete
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Pete,
If the powder extended over the paper mache sabot of the Swchenkl and the base cup of the Hotchkiss would not this increase the diameter enought to cause it to jam in ramming??
Regards,
John
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Pete and All,
I would like to expound a little further about the Schenkl and its paper mache sabot.
I am posting some photos from the Dickey collection that will illustrate that if the shell and bore diameters are compared one will see that tying a powder bag over the sabot, the increased diameter of the shell would make it impossible to fit the shell into the bore with hazard to the rammer to force a ram. It can be readily seen that there is no room on the protruding base knob to tie or glue a powder bag. The rope ring is not the remains of tying off a powder bag but in fact a tight ring to keep the sabot in place.
With my Regards,
John aka Bart
Credit: I am thankfull for the assistance of Mr. Jack Melton Jr. for his images and research on this subject.
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A close up of the rope ring.
Shell Data:
Collection: Thomas Dickey Collection, Atlanta History Center
Diameter: 2.93 inches
ID: BAB045
Bore Diameter: 3.0 inches
Cannon or Gun: 3-inch Ordnance Rifle
Overall Length: 9.88 inches
Length Without Fuse: 9.03 inches
Weight: 10.6 pounds
Construction: Case Shot
Fusing System: Combination
Fuse Material: Zinc
Sabot Material: Papier-Mache
Sabot Height: 3.87 inches
Battlefield or
Provenance: Falmouth, Virginia (across river from Fredericksburg)
Dickey number 385 painted on the side. This excavated Schenkl has the original papier-mâché sabot with a zinc sleeve covering to help reduce swelling from moisture. Schenkl combination fuse has brass pull tab on top with patent information cast in the fuse face.
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Collection: Thomas Dickey Collection, Atlanta History Center
Diameter: 6.33 inches
ID: BAB768
Bore Diameter: 6.40 inches
Cannon or Gun: 100-pounder Parrott rifle
Overall Length: 15.0 inches
Length Without Fuse: 15.0 inches
Weight: 58.6 pounds
Construction: Shell
Fusing System: Missing
Fuse Internal Thread Dia.: 1.66 inches
Sabot Material: Papier-Mache
Sabot Height: 6.00 inches
Battlefield or Provenance: Non-excavated
Sabot has zinc band at the top of the papier-mâché sabot. Zinc band at the bottom is missing. Diameter of the base knob is 2.53-inches. Has a rope ring that secures the papier-mâché sabot onto the tapered cone. For the U.S. Navy artillery.
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That excavated unfired 3" Schenkl Case-Shot with intact zinc sheetmetal sleeve over the sabot is from the fabulous cache of unfired 3" Dyers and Schenkl Case-Shots that I mentioned in the Dyer discussion started by Treadhead. This specimen shows how superbly well-preserved some of those Dyers and Schenkls were. I am aware of them because I was living in Fredericksburg at the time, and got to examine them in-person a few weeks after they were dug. That's how Tom Dickey got hold of the 3" Schenkl in the photo you posted.
As mentioned elsewhere, I've been doing very-close examinations of "unusual" specimens of ACW artillery projectiles, in real life (not just photos), for nearly 40 years. In doing so, I've seen some things which very few other still-living collectors seem to be aware of. To be helpful here in the CW Projectiles forum's various discussions, I've been freely sharing the extraordinarily rare evidence I've seen, such as the Danville VA cache of unfired 3" Schenkls with fabric preserved on their sabots. To be helpful in the discussions, I've been theorizing about the evidence publicly, saying things like "apparently: and "perhaps." Anybody who has a more-plausible explanation for the evidence I've been mentioning, please do speak up. (Like Bart did, regarding the rope-ring on the 6.4" Schenkls base-knob.)
John D. Bartleson Jr. wrote:
> If the powder[bag] extended over the paper mache sabot of the Schenkl and the base cup of the Hotchkiss
> would not this increase the diameter enought to cause it to jam in ramming??
That would depend on the thickness of the cloth fabric. Type 1 Hotchkiss projectiles had a linen sleeve glued over the entire sabot, which seems not to have caused jamming during loading.
Regards,
Pete
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Pete,
Then why not address the bag over the Schenkl sabot and the rope ring; and the added powder bag over the Hotchkiss??
John
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Pete said--About 20 years ago, a friend of mine (Jess Myer) dug a cache of about a dozen unfired 3" Schenkl Percussion shells, near Danville VA. Those unfired Schenkl shells had very-significant amounts of the sabot preserved on them. Each of them showed sizeable portions of canvas powderbag "fossilized" on the Schenkl sabot. Apparently the powderbag was either tied or glued onto the sabot's main body, because the canvas powderbag does seem to have extended "over" the sabot, not just affixed to its base. (And, perhaps that is the answer to how a powderbag was affixed to Hotchkis shells.)
I had mentioned I thought bullets with fixed charges were "glued on", and the evidence above seems fairly conclusive, which never makes it 100%, but as I see it we have two facts on the schenkles
1. the ordinace letter Pete list mentioning fixed
"Received at Fredericksburgh Va. on this 22d day of May 1864 of Capt. Rob't. A. Stanton the following Ordnance and Ordnance Stores, as per invoice dated the 22d day of May 1864.
20 R[oun]ds 3 in Schenkl Perc Shell Fixed
260 " " " Shrapnel "
160 " " Hotchkiss " "
368 " 12 Pdr. Solid Shot "
422 " " " Sph. Case "
2. visual remains found by Myer, inspected by Pete
Thats not saying all or most were equiped, but to me would indicate at least some
Pete, were any pictures taken, or were any preserved in the original state so we could get Photo evidence?.
If we start discussing the Hotchkiss, should we start another thread just for evidence on that shell since we have 3 posts now on Fixed ammo?
I buy the strangest things on whims sometime, this is one of the only bullets I ever bought, a skin or paper cartridge Glued to the bullet, maybe it would shed some light. not knowing what it is, I can't confirm if the bullet is undersize to accept the paper, but I doubt it , so the glue on technique was known and sound, why wouldn't they at least try it on bigger shells. there was some play in the sizes, and alot bullets were paper patched to hold to the bore, and it didn't interfear with the smaller bores, I doubt a thin strong cloth would bother the greater( in thousanths) play in a cannon
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Allen ,
please don't put small arms on the artilery site, :) we have enough to deal with?
Okay, now to try and give some rerrerences to put the rifled ammunition to bed. My references is Gibbons Artillerist Manual.
I spent all afteter noon tryhing to find an answer for you in the 600 odd pages of the manual the only reference to fixed rifle ammunition is for sperical shot, shell and case shot, no mention whatsoevver for elongated projectiles/
Now, we have gone from tyhing or glueing the bag to the left over knob to placing it over the sabot. If the latter be ture then they could have tied powder bags over the base and sabots of every projectle in the inventory, save the Whitworth which used a metal searate container for powder, and make ever shell fixed ammunition. Ridiculus??
Quote from Gibbons:
Page 109
“A rifle is a gun having in its bore a number of grooves, helical in form, which, as the
projectile passes out of the bore, give it the rifled or rotating motion. In rifles loaded at the muzzle, the projectile must be made to "take" the grooves, by being forced into them. It will then turn in the piece as often as the entire curve is repeated in the length of the bore, and continue the same motion after leaving the muzzle. The rate at which it revolves will depend, for any given velocity, upon the inclination which the grooves have to the axis of the piece.”
Your proposal of tying the bag over the sabots would cut the bag to pieces by the sharp edges of the lands.
Gibbons quote concerning mateial of batgs. Canfvas was not used!
Page 301
Cartridge -bags.-- should be composed entirely of wool, free from any mixture of thread or cotton, which would be apt to retain fire in the piece. The texture and sewing should be close enough to prevent the powder sifting through. Untwilled stuff is to be preferred. Flannel may be used when the other materials cannot be obtained.
The bag is formed of two pieces, a rectangle, which forms the cylinder, and a circular piece, which forms the bottom. As the stuff does not stretch in the direction of its length, the long side of the rectangle should be taken in that direction, otherwise, the cartridge might become too large for convenient use with its piece.
The material is laid, sometimes several folds thick, on a table, and the rectangles and circles marked out on it with chalk, using for the purpose, patterns made of hard, well -seasoned wood, sheet-iron, or tin. For the dimensions of these patterns, see table, p. 446, of the Appendix.
Now, I hafve provideded a technical reference and posted images to illustrated, not just unsuppored, lengthy phrases with some sort of evidence. True, I have injected my thoughts and opions (everone has one) which I thought was sound logic but guess not.
Anyway this is really all I have time for to spend on this one also as I have run out of words and thoughts.
All the Best,
John
John
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Sorry, just posted as photo proof of attaching powder charge using glue, which could possibly have been tried on a shell. I forget sometimes that having dealt with this so long you had probably seen examples already
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No comments on my remaining post???
John
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I have a total of 32 common shells as of this week. I only know from reading what they even are. What I was trying to provide was some insight of what could be possible, only from a fresh (could it possibly done this way) view. Wanna make sure its not a case of not seeing the trees for the forest:) Just in case someone had overlooked a possibility as i have very little historical knowledge to work from, I just look at question and propose how I would start experimenting if I wanted to accomplish the idea.I have no facts or evidence of what could work or what couldn't, only can view it as, if it was done?, what could possibly be tried? Then I let you fellas with years of on hands experience and research reject or say maybe on an idea. So I have been trying to forward any info which might help prove of disapprove these ideas, even if the idea came from another field like glue charges on bullets or some metalwork I used to do. All inventions somewhere someone said"what if we try this" and 90% of it wasn't practical. As we go along, I try and absorb the ideas, to find another possibility to try if the 1st idea wouldn't work. I'm not qualified to accept or reject any of them myself, I'm just too inexperienced in firing and construction. I don't know clearances,possible materials( for some reason I thought powder bags to be linin, don't know why), but I do know construction in wood and metal. Thought maybe a fresh idea of how might click with something we have seen and now made sense
John, I find the above very interesting, am going to look for a copy to read.
I'm really not on either side of this, I have no idea if it ever happened beside what was posted here. A week ago I had never even considered the idea. It's fun to try and figure out if it would even be possible though:) even if not practical.
wow that was very long for I don't have any idea, sound good to me:) I'll try and stop being the Devils advocate in the discussions if we only want facts and not hypothesis. I'm really a student of bayonets, striving to expand my knowledge, Thank s Guys, but I'll let others continue this who know more
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Allen,
You keep asking your questions and perhaps one day the truth will be revealed. Send me your email and I will send you a PDF of Gibbons manual (6 megs)
Regards,
John