Cavalry Camp Bullets - Greene Rifle Bullets (Bolt action)

[GeoDiggerMike]

Here are a few of my bullets from a Cavalry camp that R.J., myself and another digger have been hunting over the last few seasons.  It has produced some amazing bullets..  The bullets in the center are all Greene's.  Most are whittled on and one even was carved into a phallic symbol (twig & berries:)).  Ya hardly ever see these bullets turn up at sites, so we've been fortunate have to stumbled onto a few.  R.J., I believe has a few from this site.  Enjoy the bullets..  Glad to be back on the forums..  Thanks for the help, Mike W.  LouisianaMike

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[R. J. in LA]

Yes Mike, over the last few years I've been fortunate enough to have dug a few specimens of the Greene Rifle bullet at the cavalry camp, thanks to Keith & you, and at one other area in south Louisiana.  Even though that cavalry camp site is really sparse now with relics, maybe we can squeeze one or two more of those Greene Rifle bullets out of there!

[ETEX]

Well gang I have been on vacation the last couple of weeks and out of the country. It sure seems slow on the bullets section of the forum. I have never had a Greene in my collection but got lucky and picked one up from a Louisiana digger. Haven't received it yet but will post pics when I get it.

[tom buckley]

To which "Greene" bullet are we referring --

                                                                 the bullet with the solid base, or the pattern with the conical cavity?

I believe there is some misunderstanding on what the Greene pattern really is, and I'm not sure of the correct information.

I agree. The Greene carbine would have been extremely rare. Their were 300 produced from 1855 - 1857 and only 170 issued in 1857 for field trials. In 1855, the British purchased 2,000 and the evidence that they were bought by the South is pretty slim. The US Ordnance Dept. purchased 900 Greene rifles which saw limited service at Antietam. Of the 4,000 Greene rifles made, some may have been purchased by northern states. From United States Military Small Arms by Robert M. Reilly.
In my lowly opinion, I believe that the solid base bullets that collectors have labeled as "Greene Bullets" were produced in the South for use in some breech- loading arm, but not the Greene Carbine or Rifle.
I seem to have a memory of this from an earlier forum or a previous life. 

[R. J. in LA]

The "Greene's" that GeoDiggerMike (he initiated this thread) and I found in the cavalry camp site are the solid base and not the conical cavity examples.  Hope this helps.

[Dr. Beach]

Hello R.J., Tom, Mike, Aggie, Etex:

Some of these solid-based Greenes are also to be found in the Shenandoah Valley.  I have a fired example from that location.  Here is my note for the specimen:

.54 (.53) caliber, Greene rifle, flat base, no grooves, rifling marks evident,
fired from a carbine with five lands and grooves (according to
Reilly’s United States Military Small Arms, 1816-1865, the U.S. made
Greene carbine had five--per M&M, so did a .54 Starr, .54 Burnside,
.54 Ballard, or a .52 Terry carbine [.54 per M&M] English breech
loader). According to "Flayderman’s Guide to Antique American
Firearms . . .," (8th Ed., pp. 510-511) some .54 Greene Carbines
produced by the Massachusetts Arms Co. made it into the hands of
the 6th Ohio Cavalry, and the 6th did operate in the Shenandoah
Valley, U.S.A., T&T 93, Shenandoah Valley, Virginia.

[Jim T]

Geo & RJ,

Where, generally, did you find these?

Thanks, JT

[R. J. in LA]

Jim, we found these in the vicinity of the city of Thibodaux, LA at a Union camp site along Bayou Lafourche.

[tom buckley]

AggieReb,
Are the .516 and .510 bullets in your collection Cone cavity Enfields? In M&M, long, cone cavity Enfields for Mississippi Rifles and Austrians are labeled as Greenes. I have one from the Mac Mason collection.
As for the solid base "Greene" bullets that are turning up in the deep South,  I believe that they are Southern made for a breech loader but not a Greene. That being said, R. J.'s post stating that his were from a Union camp site may cause me to have to re-think my assumption.
 

[ETEX]

Jim, the Greene I am waiting to receive was also dug in LaFourche Parish and may well have been dug in the same camp as Geo and RJ's. I should get mine in the mail in a couple of weeks. I will post the dimensions and pics as soon as I receive the bullet.

[R. J. in LA]

To give a little more detail, I have 2 "Greene's" (solid base) from the site where GeoDiggerMike & I located the cavalry camp. Note, we call the site the cavalry camp but besides the cavalry bullets we have found a good number of .58 cal. Minie balls also indicating infantry occupied this camp. Our other hunting buddy found a beautiful dropped MM #104 "Hall rifle by Merrill" specimen at this same camp.  I have 2 other "Greene's" (solid base) that I dug from another site in south Louisiana farther west than the cavalry camp and associated with a later campaign.  This second area was involved in the Bayou Teche Campaign.
Dimensions on the "Greene's" (solid base) I have:
Specimen A, dropped, located in plowed field: found @ cavalry camp, Bayou Lafourche campaign 1862, south Louisiana (but this area was probably occupied for the remainder of the war): D .548, L 1.006
Specimen B, dropped, located in pasture: found @ cavalry camp, Bayou Lafourche campaign 1862, south Louisiana: D .546, L 1.005
Specimen C, dropped, located in plowed field: found in area along Bayou Teche campaign 1863, south Louisiana: D .536, L .995
Specimen D, rammed hard, located in plowed field: found in area along Bayou Teche campaign 1863, south Louisiana: D .533, L .989

The specimens look like #439 ".54 cal. Greene rifle Wt. 571 D .545 L 1.00 Solid base" listed in Dean Thomas' Roundball to Rimfire Part Two.

[tom buckley]

R. J.
Does Specimen D show any rifling marks?

[ETEX]

R.J. thanks for posting the sizes of the Greene's.

[R. J. in LA]

Thanks Michael, and Tom, with the plow dings it is very difficult to discern any type of definite rifling marks on Specimen D.

[Jim T]

Per Dean, 9,000 Green carbine cartridges from the Baton Rouge Arsenal moved through Corinth in the spring of 1862.  The true Green bullet should be in the follow range: .545 diameter, 1.00 long, 575 grains.