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Author Topic: Bullet thoughts/identity  (Read 15729 times)

ETEX

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Bullet thoughts/identity
« on: July 14, 2012, 02:34:53 PM »
Hey gang I am throwing a photo of a bullet out and really would like inputs (honest and brutal if necessary) on this bullet. I know of two or three collectors that have these in their collection and you can include me in that group. I don't have a photo of the cavity at the moment but it is between a conical and dish with the measurements of the bullet .537 x .845 x 358. I would be curious if any Trans-Mississippi diggers have seen this bullet or dug one like it or if any other diggers have come across this bullet in different theatres.

emike123

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2012, 04:35:33 PM »
Wes: That's the name given it and the area associated, but I do not believe they have been recovered "frequently," and I would like to know how many folks are aware of a firsthand recovery.  The digger has been lost to posterity in the case of the couple I have had.  I would like to know if folks are aware of more than one person who has recovered them.  That would be nice to know.

ETEX

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2012, 05:33:41 PM »
Wes, you hit the nail on the head. It is known as a Pat Cleburne and I am attempting to find out all the information and dig locations where this bullet has been recovered. I see Mike jumped in on questioning the locations and number of diggers that have actually found this bullet.


ETEX

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 01:34:44 PM »
Wes, that is a big plus on the bullet with Stan present when dug.

Big Lefty

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2012, 05:05:14 PM »
The first one of these I saw surfaced back in the 1980's at one of the Memphis CW shows.  When they first appeared they caused quite a stir.  Since then I've not heard of another one coming out of the ground.  That said, I have since learned that these may be of dubious origin.  To my knowledge they came from the Shiloh/Corinth area.  Still again I have dug a couple of "one-of-a-kind" bullets from the Shiloh area that I know are as "right as rain." A lot of odd ball ammunition has been found in the Shiloh-Corinth corridor  I wish I could state unequivocally that the "Pat Cleburne" is a good bullet.  It may very well be.  I would certainly be a shame with a moniker like "Pat Cleburne" for it to be bogus.  In my opinion, the jury is still out on this one.   

acwbullets

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2012, 05:45:52 PM »
I have seen these bullets as well but I am unsure of them. They may very well be a Whith. Special like the larger LeMat slugs. Does anyone here have one with a great patina?

emike123

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2012, 07:35:03 PM »
Mine has a similar light patina.  I trusted Stan 100% but still need firsthand confirmation that its legit. 

ETEX

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 01:35:30 PM »
Big Lefty and Ian, that is the reason I posted the bullet as an unknown because of the lack of authenticity. In my humble opinion the jury is still out on this one and I would like to hear from other diggers that have found them. If nothing else it will make a good fishing weight. Oh dang, I forgot, we have to be green and the lead might poison the water and fish. Won't be the first time I have been stung if the jury reaches the verdict I think it will.

tennesseelead

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2012, 12:09:41 AM »
Not addressing the "Pat Cleb" bullet directly. The Corinth/Shiloh areas of the ACW will produce the largest variety of bullets I have yet to see. Other ole timers will attest to the same. A larger variety than the Fredricksburg/Culpepper/Wilderness areas. Much larger than the N GA/Chattanooga/Atlanta areas. E TN produces reallly oddd bullets but not in a large variety.  Mike, is the leopard changing its spots again?
kp

dlw1610

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2012, 03:03:05 PM »
Hey from Petersburg, VA,

Tom Stelma, shortly before his demise, chatted with Skip Mayorga & advised he believed 05-78, Some Civil War Bullets 2, was 18 gauge for the Lemat Revolving Rifle.   Certainly logical as who would want to fire such a missile so close to the face as it would be  if used in the Lemat revolver.

Am considering mine as such unless strong evidence proves otherwise.

David

emike123

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 09:51:50 PM »
We have forked this thread into a discussion of two different bullets, 1 affectionately called the Pat Cleburne and the other the LeMat slug.

I'd be interested in knowing if there is more to the associate of that bullet to a LeMat than just the "Cinderella" approach ("if the size fits...") to bullet identification.  That information would be of significant interest to many bullet collectors and until such time there may be some question marks about them for some skeptics.  Hopefully, some great facts emerge to clear up some of the uncertainty.

Sadly, the two sources cited here for both these "Shiloh area" bullets are no longer with us to discuss this.  I do know Tom got his LeMat slug from a collector who in turn had bought it from another collector (neither me and both still alive) so Tom did not have firsthand knowledge on the actual bullet in his collection.  He may have on others though...

I'd love to hear of any period cartridges to nail things down or firsthand recovery accounts of them other than by "Whith".
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 10:25:49 PM by emike123 »

acwbullets

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2012, 02:18:40 AM »
I would agree that the Corinth/Shiloh area has a large variety of bullets. However, the same area is synonymous with bullets that have been claimed to be Civil War that are not. It is easy to throw oddball bullets into the mix when it comes to these areas and claim they are Civil War just based on the wide variety of different types already found. This particular area was at one time home to a very massive bullet mold collection. I would assume that the large variety of molds in the collection have had a bullet or two poured into them overtime. While I don't believe any individual intentionally made bullets to fool people in the 1960's-1970's, today is another story. Think about the marketing tactics and information out there on the projectile market today. Back in the 70's you could buy a lot of bullets for cheap and even the rare ones were considered pennies on the dollar compared to todays standards. Again...today is a different story and relics do end up in possession of those who are monetarily driven to make up elaborate stories to make a buck. Several types of molded bullets have been recast, painted, and have had a patina applied. As long as there in money in it, there will always be someone trying to fool the rest. It isn't just collectors being fooled, it is dealers as well. Over the years, I have become more critical than most when it comes to new bullets. I always have to ask the simple questions of who dug it, where was it dug, were there witnesses, are those witnesses reliable, is the digger reliable, is there documentation on the pieces recovered, is it possible that it is civilian rather than military, etc. When you really start to examine a projectile for what it truely is, you may come up with more reasons why it is not what it is portrayed to be. Then you come up with more questions like why is the design the way it is, what resources went into making it, where the resources available in that geographic area, and could it be a private purchase piece? On top of that you also have to ask could it be prewar or postwar and what are the characteristics of those types of projectiles? Where there civilians in the same area after the war moving west? This type of scenario can lead to all sorts of ideas just based on the personal income of those moving westward. They would all be carrying different guns, new and old, short and long, highly skilled works or art or wallhangers. The point is that all of these guns had bullets but exactly which types of projectiles they fired may never be known. This is the greatest part about collecting dug projectiles!

I would have to agree with several scholars that proof is needed in order to determine whether a bullet is what it is said to be. In the instance of some of the harder to find bullets there is a lot to be left to the imagination. Why aren't these cartridges found? Why aren't these bullets in old cased sets? Why don't the projectiles show up the the earlier texts?

Look at a bullet like the so called "LeMat slug." Why are they only found in one area? Where they found with other LeMat bullets? What makes this bullet attributed to the LeMat other than a similar shape? Do most appear to be the same bullet? Was the LeMat even carried in the area where they were dug? Why don't they show up in cased sets? Why don't they turn up in Europe where most LeMats were manufactured? Where are the fired examples? The LeMat had several of different sizes of guaged bores (bottom barrel), why was this bullet only made for one size? Who were the diggers of these bullets and where are they today? Have more been found since the initial recovery? The fact is that this particular bullet could be from any private/governmental purchased gun and made in very limited quantity. It could very well even be post war. Not likely.....but there is still a chance. I always seem to have more questions about bullets than the facts can answer which leaves me very skeptical about certain types like the above mentioned example. I could always make the case that I have just as much proof why it isn't what it is said to be. On the other hand someone can theorize a completely different story. In the end, nobody is truely correct until hard evidence proves otherwise.

I have always been under the impression that if you are going to collect Civil War bullets you can't just stop reading/collecting there. A five year period is not enough time to grasp the evolution of the bullet and cartridge as a whole, and there are a lot of unanswered questions to just stop at 1865. The "post war" period is just as great with new technological advancements that came about due to the problems with Civil War ammunition. If you only cocentrate on one era it makes it harder to think outside the box when it comes to small arms ammunition.

ETEX

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2012, 01:08:28 PM »
Mike, I was at the Memphis Show several years ago with Tom when he bought the LeMat Slug in his collection. I can attest for the LeMat Slug I purchased and it was from a reputable dealer that told me it was dug years ago by "Whith". Shortly after the questions started being asked on the validity of the LeMat Slug the "dug by Whith" quit being used on the site.

For what it's worth, I took the LeMat Slug out of my collection.

Now back to the Pat Cleburne. It would be nice to see and hear from folks that have dug fired examples, cartridges, etc as Mike and Ian both mentioned.

Great post Ian.

misipirelichtr

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Here's my Pat Cleuborne......
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2012, 12:21:34 AM »
recovered by Coy Kitchens from one of Patrick Cleuborne's camps on the approach road to Shiloh.  Purchased from a very reputible dealer.  I can't tell you how rare this bullet is, but I do believe mine is "right".  While almost all of my trans-Mississippi bullets are "Mike rejects", I'm still pretty proud of them!

emike123

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Re: Bullet thoughts/identity
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 10:17:22 AM »
It certainly looks like the same bullet and having a name associated (I do not know that person -- does anyone know if he is still with us?) with its recovery is a good sign.



Yours appears to have the best patina of the bunch.

Hopefully, we can get one or two more recovery names and then we should be set.