Bullet base marks

[Daveslem]

Jim, my M&M is at work so I can't see the illustration of the Rose base mark.  I think what I showed is it. i believe the smushed rimless wheel is what they're depicting. What say you all?

[Jim T]

First, please review previous page, I've added pics to the entries.

Next up, the English numbered cavities...

M&M cavity # 9 - 15 & 34:  These specimens with numbers in the base of the cavity were all made at the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich.  These are the "official" bullets of the crown and as such they also feature the "broad arrow" which is the English property mark.  There is an ongoing debate about these being found at American Civil War sites.  I have to side with those being from later "site contamination."  Even though the English supported the South because of cotton & economics, the English government absolutely could not show any "official" support.  If any English government property was found to be supplied to the CS, it would have meant war with the North.


These numbered bullets were considered extremely rare prior to the market being flooded a few years ago by diggers who found a bunch up in Canada.  These are easily had now although most are in fired condition.


The numbers (1 thru 8 ) are found at the base of the cavity while the 4 broad arrows are found at the 4 points of the compass on the rim.  These arrows are composed of 3 thin raised "lines" and are often hard to see, especially on fired bullets.  These arrows are illustrated in M&M as the lower, right drawing on the page.


The number 8 specimen I have here illustrated also brings up an additional point.  Years ago Tom Stelma authored an article about base marks in the North-South Trader.  He listed several examples as specific, intentional base marks that simply are not.  One such feature he listed was the "triangle" or "shield" either by itself or in combination with other markings.  This "triangle" is merely the result of the bullet being fired.  The Enfield rifle has 3 rifle "grooves" and 3 "lands".  When fired, the wood plug in the base of the Enfield bullet is forced up into the cavity scraping lead from the inside of the cavity along the lines of the 3 equidistant "lands" in the barrel and depositing that at the top of the plug thus forming the triangle.

[Jim T]

 

[Jim T]

 

[Roy A]

Very cool information. I recently picked up a fired Enfield with thew "4" in it (fired) and had heard that they were most likely not imported during the war because of the broad arrows.

[Daveslem]

Looked at my M&M at work and see what you mean, Jim, I do not have a Rose. 

[ETEX]

Jim, I have the seven spoke rimless wheel that is my avator.

[emike123]

I have 1-9 marked bullets although I cannot tell if the 6 is a 9 so get double credit for it.  Several have dots too, but I don't see any broad arrow marks.  Many I got from Corky who said they came out of Charleston, and most of the rest I got from a Virginia bullet collection, some with dig locations in the US.  None are fired.  I have seen those Canadian onion field British rifle range bullets and they are fired and a bit yellowish.  I will take pictures of ones folks desire seeing, but hopefully that's not each and every one as some are behind glass and very difficult to get at.

[Pete George]

  Please pardon a question which isn't strictly on-topic but is at least somewhat related.  Back in the 1980s, scuba-divers got onto a blockade runner shipwreck off the coast of the Carolinas, and found a significant quantity of Enfield minies with the L2 base-mark. I'm pretty certain it was not the Modern Greece, because the state of NC had firmly prevented any more diving on the Greece by the time the divers started bringing this batch of L2 minies to the relic shows. If anybody here knows the name of that blockade runner with certainty, please tell me.  Ranger, or Minho, or another one?

Regards,
Pete

[dlw1610]

Beginning close to 30 years ago I saw many L2 marked bullets offered at relic shows as being from the Minho along with little baggies of percussion caps.

[Pete George]

  Thanks for confirming the blockade runner source of those L2 Enfield minies as the CSS Minho.  I've still got a couple dozen of them, and I hate it when I forget a relic's Provenance. I figured it was either the Minho or the Ranger, but wanted to be sure which one.  Thanks again.

Regards,
Pete

[Jim T]

Numbers 16 - 21.........

# 16, 17, & 20:  "E" "K" & "R" -- As far as I know these are not legit.  Most are attributed to M&M collection.  I suspect they could be mis-stamps or some other deformed stamping.

# 18, 19:  "P" and reversed "P" -- These were a product of William Pursall.  These are much less common than other base marks, and the reversed P is quite uncommon.  Many of these have come from the Modern Greece wreck.

# 21: "S" -- From J. Schlesinger & Company in Birmingham.  There might be variations in the size of the "S"... it looks like the one Dave posted is noticeably smaller than mine...will have to compare.  These are tough to come by for bullet collectors.

[emike123]

No E, K, R here, but these are...

[Daveslem]

Mike,

Concerning the middle image (V), is the mark incuse or sunken? If so I believe it was branded by the digger or someone trying to make a few bucks. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all other base marks raised?

[Jim T]

Mike, you're as bad as Slemmer.  Can't you wait 'til I get to those items in the list before you go posting pics out of sequence?  So, I'll tackle the remainder here and now.

Numbers 22-28 --

#22, 23: I personally don't think these are intentional marks.  I'd suspect that the "I" is a portion of another stamp, probably and "L".  I think the same of the "V".  I really don't know what to make of Mike's first pic...if it is indeed insized as Dave suggests, then it is not original.  The second "V" pic is a fired bullet and is probably a deformed "L".

#24: I think the "shield" shape found in an Enfield base is just a distortion of the "triangle" in fired bullets I already discussed further up in the thread.

#25: This raised dot is found in many bullets.  In cast bullets it was an attempt to eliminate the air bubbles that formed in the cavity.  In pressed bullets it is found in different sizes and is from an unknown maker.

#26, 27, 28: Not real as far as I'm concerned.  The "CS" "US" and a supposed "GA" are claimed to exist.  Why? Who would have made them? And why would a die be engraved, and all the work involved, to only have one bullet be produced?  Without naming names, the story I've heard was that a certain dealer (now deceased) used a heated metal stamp to form these marks in the cavities of original excavated bullets.