Bullet base marks

[Jim T]

Let's discuss the various raised base marks found in the cavities of our beloved bullets.  I guess we all need to turn to page 19 of M&M.  What I will ask is, if there are any disagreements about a specific marking, back up your statements with a photo.  I want to see real proof of these markings, not "I heard so-and-so found one."  I'd also be interested in the number and description of any variations of each as well as verified dig locations of the uncommon ones.

I'll start with #1-3:

#1 -- the "rose":  Does this exist?  Who has a true "rose"?  By the drawing it looks like a Spirograph (for those of us old enough to know what that is) like rose.  I have my suspicions that this might just be a fired (thus flattening/deforming) the "rimless wheel."  What say you all?

#2 -- the "wheel":  I have seen these and have one.  They are not terribly common and we do not know who made them.

#3 -- the "rimless wheel":  I have one of these.  I believe slightly more common than #2. 

[Jim T]

#4 -- "spoke":  These spokes were created when the teeth of a lathe chuck was pressed into the slug of lead to machine-shape a bullet on a lathe.  Found on .58 caliber 3-ringers and certain .50 caliber Gallagers.  The 3-ringers were made on one of two machines made by J.D. Custer.  One machine was purchased by the Frankford Arsenal and the other was sold to an unknown commercial manufacturer.  The Custer specimens are found in 5 and 6 spoke varieties. There is no 8-spoke variety as illustrated.  Some anomalies are seen when the chuck slipped and caused some lead scrapings or multiple lines ("chatter") in the cavity.  The Custer bullets are fairly common finds...the Gallagers with spokes are less common.

[emike123]

Good topic for discussion.  I have a so called rose base Enfield I got from Corky Huey who said it came out of Charleston.  It is not fired, but the marking is difficult to make out and the picture I just took (at night with a small camera) stinks.  I had a suspicion it was a rimless wheel that twisted during manufacture creating the "spirograph" effect.

I will try to take a picture with a better camera and lighting in the next day or so.  Also, I have another collection of bullets that has a lot of base marked ones in it that I can check for a better specimen.

I have dozens of different base marked bullets with all sorts of odd configurations like dots next to numbers in different positions and numbers out of alignment.  As you know, I got a backwards 55 at Dean's auction and a 57 base Tom Greene from Coonboy.

[Jim T]

Break out your photographic proof Mike, otherwise......... 

You got ahead of me somewhat, but since you brought it up, what does everyone think about the random "dots" that are found in some specimens?  I'm referring to the dots that sometimes appear at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions around the central mark.  While we generally accept that the base marks are a way to determine the amount of wear on the punches and dies, I speculate that these additional dots may denote which head it was punched on.  The Anderson bullet press had 4 heads or punches.  Personally, I don't care about collecting all the various dot locations.  If I have a "L" base Enfield, that's good enough.  How do the rest of you feel?

[Daveslem]

Great! Now I need a backward 55. Can't you just leave well enough alone? Hate these people who need to know everything.

[Jim T]

#5 -- "57":  This mark is found only in Enfield bullet bases.  As stated above, I personally don't pay much attention to the stray "dots" that also show up on some specimens.  These are fairly common finds.  These were made by Eley Brothers in London.  I believe the "57" mark is fairly standard and any odd variations are probably a result of being fired.

ADDITIONAL comments:
Yes, Mike, I remember seeing the "57" in the Dance & Park bullet.  However those bullets were definitely cast, so the "57" in the cavity was not formed by the same means.  The only reason I can imagine that they are there is if the mould maker was given a "57" base Enfield bullet to copy from and he did so to the last detail...including a "57" on the base plug.

[emike123]

I have in the past sent you and your brother a print showing the 57 in the base of the Coonboy's Tom Green bullet too.  It satisfied Dean at the time.

I texted you pics of dozens of bullets today with the base marks noted, although admittedly the pictures shot hurriedly from my iPhone were fuzzy and lacked detail for close inspection of the actual marks. 

I admit this picture of the so called rose mark is crummy, and may not truly qualify as such.  I think it is a wheel mark that got messed up during manufacturing.  Perhaps the pusher head turned during the formation.  The bullet is not fired.

[Jim T]

I down loaded your pic and tried everything Photoshop has to offer.  I cannot see any clear sort of shape in that mess let alone a "rose."  If this is the best proof of a "rose" in the base of an Enfield bullet, I say there is no such thing.  If anyone has a better specimen, step up and show us. 

[Daveslem]

If a rose is, in fact, the "smooshed" spokes of a rimless wheel, I have one. I'll post it when I get home.

[Daveslem]

Here's my "rose".

P.S. Bullet isn't fired.

[Daveslem]

Here's my backward P with three dots. (Just for you, Jim) From Dean's collection. Came from the Modern Greece.

[Daveslem]

Here's my S. I have a great S, don't I?

[CarlS]

Now that's a great "S"!

[Jim T]

Dave, I wouldn't call that a "rose" but that's my opinion.  Looks like a flattened rimless wheel.

How about saving all your pics and adding them when we get to those specific rounds?

[Jim T]

#6 -- "L":  Found in English-made Enfield cavities.  From E. & A. Ludlow in Birmingham England.

#7 -- "L1": L with superscript "1"  Found in English-made Enfield cavities.  From E. & A. Ludlow in Birmingham England.

#8 -- "L2": L with superscript "2"  Found in English-made Enfield cavities.  From E. & A. Ludlow in Birmingham England.

If I had to guess, I suppose the L2 is the rarest of these.