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Author Topic: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?  (Read 13427 times)

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« on: July 25, 2013, 12:20:52 PM »
This article appeared in the North-South Trader about 1989.  Does anyone know about this fuse?  It resembles the Schenkl Combination but I don't think it is the patent model.
John

Dave the plumber

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2013, 06:48:23 AM »
        John, never saw the fuze before, I'd like to know more about it.....

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2013, 07:26:27 AM »
So would I
John

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2013, 12:21:57 PM »
Pete, what are your thoughts on this?
John

acwbullets

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2013, 12:57:39 PM »
Those shells and fuses were used around Keyser WV. I have only seen one other fuse like that from the Fort Piano site. Most of the shells fired up there were early and there are a good mix of rarer shells from that area.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 03:02:08 PM »
sir, We all know what shell it is, my question concerns the fuse.  is it a Schenkl combination fuse?
John

acwbullets

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 03:28:06 PM »
From the example I have seen I would say no. There is one in a box at Potomac State College. If I can track down the number to the lady I'll see if I can obtain some better photographs. From what I can remember it was like a sawyer fuse.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 05:47:35 PM »
A comparison with a Sawyer Fuse. The knurled area and 12 tpi threads seem to match.  Does anyone see the time holes on the fuse at left?  The fuse body appears larger than the Sawyer. A clear photo would surely help. I also could not find the thread diameter of each.
John
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 06:06:11 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2013, 06:34:09 PM »
There is .3" difference between the Sawyer and Schenkl Com o  fuse thread diameters.   Perhaps this Schenkl shell was threaded for a Sawyer?? or perhaps not as the photo says the strange fuse was not actually found in the shell. ::)
Cheers,
John
who is ACW Bullet??

Pete George

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2013, 11:33:25 PM »
Bart, because you specifically asked me to give my thoughts about it:
1-  I've never had the opportunity to examine the one in the photo, and it is the only one I knew of until Acwbullets said he knows of at least one other.

2-  Speaking frankly, the claim that the one in the photo was unscrewed from the shell is surprising, because as most of us know, a non-ferrous metal threaded fuze will almost never unscrew from a dug projectile's iron threads. The ultra-rare exceptions to that rule have been shells recovered from anaerobic environments, such as underwater or in swamp-muck.

3-  I'd have to say, the threads on the fuze in the photo do not look like they they came out of a shell. The threaded section of that fuze is extremely short... which would allow groundwater to get past them, wetting the shell's powder-charge, which would then tend to corrode at least the lower part of the threads (and the part of the fuze's body which was exposed to the powder inside the shell.

4- I do not think it is a previously-unknown version of Schenkl Combination fuze.

5- Speaking frankly, the photo and report about it does not convince me that the object is in actual fact a fuze. Note that the edge of the Sawyer Combination fuze is "knurled," to aid in screwing it TIGHTLY into the fuzehole.  The edge of the "lip" above the threads on this object show no knurling, and it is extremely thin.  The thin-ness would not seem to allow for functional spanner-wrench holes or wrench-slots. So, how was it SUFFICIENTLY tightened into the shell's fuzehole? (As y'all know, that is crucially necessary for artillery fuzes).

6- The photo indicates the threaded piece is brass, and the rest of the fuze's body is iron.  The only other such arrangement in civil war fuzes is a brass Navy Watercap fuze which screwed into a large iron bushing.  The first model of Schenk Percussion fuze was iron.  Could this be one of that type, which is screwed into a brass adapter-bushing, because the shell's fuzehole was larger than an iron Schenkl Percussion fuze's threading? (Note, that wild guess assumes that the story about this fuze having been unscrewed from that shell is true.)

7- Probably contradicting that wild guess are two facts:
An iron Schenkl Percussion fize's body is longer than what we see on the photo.
Also, the iron Schenkl Percussion fuze was "lipless" (unlike the brass version), with the threading going all the way to the fuze's "top."  No threading in that area is visible at the top of the (presumably) iron object in the photo.

  Since the specimen in the photo is not available for inspection and measuring, that's about all I can say regarding it, John.  We can only hope that Acwbullets is successful in his attempt to examine, measure, and photograph the other specimen he is aware of.

Regards,
Pete     

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2013, 09:35:30 AM »
Pete, Thank you for your valued input, but please don't feel you need an invitation to respond.  We always want to hear from you.
   In the note with the 'fuse' and shell states that "it was unscrewed and laying next to the shell" .  That tells me that it was found that way, not that the owner unscrewed.  In that case it should have deteriorated as we see it.
    How is the Sawyer screwed into a shell? Is it not by the knurled ring?
I hope the fuse is located and photographed.
All the Best,
John

misipirelichtr

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2013, 12:46:35 PM »
If anyone had posted just a photo of the mystery fuse, and asked what it was, I'd have responded a "wick holder for an early lamp".  I don't know what type fuse it is, but I have to agree with Mr. George - just because it was dug beside a shell, does not make it a fuse.  I do know enough to strongly doubt it is a Sawyer fuse.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2013, 01:39:18 PM »
Sir;
     I am not saying it is definitely a sawyer.  ACW Bullets suggested it might be a Sawyer.
      Now, what are your reasons for 'strongly doubting" it to be a Sawyer?
Cheers,
John

Pete George

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2013, 02:40:57 PM »
  Before I say anything else, let me state publicly that the following comments are not intended as an attack on John for posting the magazine's old photo and info which claims the object is an artillery fuze.
 
  Prior to John's direct request for me to comment, I had decided not to comment about the alleged fuze, because the magazine's single photo of it, with NO MEASUREMENTS GIVEN, is a boobytrap I did not want to step into.

Explanation of why it is a boobytrap:
  I participate in an internet relic-discussion forum where diggers post unknown objects for identification. Diggers often post a single photo with no measurements given.  Thus, the ID-guesses they receive in response are very often incorrect.

  In this case, the digger jumped to the conclusion that the object is a fuze because he found it "next to" a shell. In my opinion, that is an ill-founded conclusion. He should have (precisely) measured the object's diameter and the fuzehole's diameter, to see if they match up. The magazine's report gives no indication that that was ever done, for confirmation of the allegation that the object is an artillery shell fuze.

 Also, the magazine's statement that "the fuze was unscrewed and lying next to the shell" is strange wording, which is easily misinterpreted. Why not simply say "the fuze was lying next to the shell"? The inclusion of the words "was unscrewed" led me to think the digger did it. Now, I realize that John's interpretation of the strangely-worded statement is almost certainly the correct one.

 Without being able to track down that 1989-dug shell and the alleged fuze found nearby, we will probably never know if the threading-diameter of each of them matches up, or not.

Answering John's question:
  Yes, the knurling on the Sawyer Combination fuze's edge is one PART of what enabled it to be screwed "sufficiently" tightly into a Sawyer shell's fizehole.  The other part is, a Sawyer shell's fuzehole-threading is made of soft lead. Torgue applied to the fuze's brass threading causes the soft lead threading to conform tightly to the brass threads, making a flame-proof seal.

Regards,
Pete

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Is the Fuse a Schenkl Conbination?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2013, 03:08:45 PM »
Pete,
   I believe I agree with your statements.  This was not posted as a 'booby-trap', I am not that type of person.  I am not sure why the N-S Trader published an unconfirmed object, I should many objects are published w/o I.D.
   I honestly was hoping someone knew what the 'fuse like' object was. Doug Adams and I were doing a study of the Schenkl fuse family and this thing turned up. Whatever this object is might be covered with corrosion and dirt hiding its true shape.
    Let me ask this question - were Sawyer fuses used in the early model Schenkl shells?
John