Larger Lead Case Shot Ball Question...

[acwbullets]

I have been recently going through an old collection from Cedar Creek and a newer collection from the Gettysburg retreat route. Both collections have case shot balls that are about 1" in diameter. Does anyone know what type of shell these may have come out of? Both sites would have been hit by mid to late war shells. Any thoughts or opinions?

[Pete George]

Acwdigger wrote:
> Both collections have [lead] case shot balls that are about 1" in diameter. Does anyone know
> what type of shell these may have come out of? Any thoughts or opinions?

  Because we're coming up on 48 hours since you posted your questions, and nobody else has replied, I'll speak up.

  By definition, Case-Shot balls are from explosive shells.  I realize my brain is getting elderly, but at the moment I do not recall any Field-Artllery caliber explosive shells which contained lead balls that are 1-inch diameter, or larger.  Nothing but Field-Artillery caliber cannons were used at the sites you mention, Cedar Creek and Gettysburg.  Therefore, I think there are only two Identification possibilities for the 1"-diameter lead balls you report from those sites:
1- Those balls are Canister balls (not Case-Shot balls).
2- They are not artillery balls.

  Please use calipers to very-precisely measure those lead balls, and tell us their exact diameter.

  There are a few extremely rare types of Rifled-cannon Field-Artillery canister (such as Wiard, and James) which contained "large" lead balls.  Our fellow forum-member Canister-D is one of the two top-level collectors (and scholars) of civil war Canister ammo.  When you tell us the exact diameter of the Cedar Creek and Gettysburg lead balls, perhaps he will be able to match them up with a known type of Canister.

Regards,
Pete

[acwbullets]

Pete,

These measure .915" in diameter. I figured they may be cansiter but to what I don't know. I know Stuart's horse artillery came through both places but the Cedar Creek battle seems to have more of the large lead balls than anywhere around here.

Ian

[CanisterD]

Hi Ian ... one more question before we venture what might be at best a guess.  Are the shot bruised or impact dented in any fashion?  If they are canister shots, they should show dents on 4-5-6 different 'faces' from contact with the shot around them in the can as they are being 'blasted' down the bore.  If they are undamaged, it does not totally eliminate them as canister shot, as they could have come from a dropped canister that rusted away, but it begins to make them suspect.  There are other round things that are not cannon balls or canister shots.  You've been around this game long enough that's no new answer to you either.  The diameter is correct for a canister in the 3" rifle family, but I don't know of any rifles that used lead shot, until you get into the bigger bores.  Will wait to hear from you on the physical condition of the balls.  I guess you can't rule out experimental ammo, but I'd think by G'burg or CC, experimental ammo was long gone.  DG

[misipirelichtr]

I'm away from home so I can't measure it, but I have a large diameter lead ball that I got from Mr. Waxham who recovered it at the Marshall Powderworks in Texas. As memory serves, it measured out at just a bit over an inch.   I can't tell you what type shell or canister it was used in, but it has rock solid provenance.  Hopefully Mr. Waxham will see this post and add a bit more information.

[acwbullets]

Dave,

The ones from the Gettysburg retreat route have multiple dents and that is why I thought they may have been case shot. The ones from the Cedar Creek area are nearly perfect and undented. I'll try to get some representative pictures after work tomorrow.

Ian

[CanisterD]

Ian ... as Pete pointed out, one inch ( more or less ) is too big for field artillery case shot.  It is correct for canister shot, and the dents sort of 'prove' that ... problem is, I can't think of a canister round that used 1" lead shot, until you get to the 3.65" Sawyer rounds, and I would bet the farm that Sawyers weren't at G'burg or CC.  You'll keep me awake for a while stewing on this one.  And they are the same size? the fired ones and the unfired 'drops' ?  Whose retreat route?  Canister is a defensive round, so if you are finding it in an impact area of CS artillery, then it's likely CS canister,  but lead canister from CS is less common, as the south saved its lead mainly for bullets.  Yankee lead canister shot is less surprising to find, but as I said, I can't think of any canister shot that size.  Anything is possible, Yankee or Reb, so , "it's possible" ... Dave G

[callicles]

Here is a picture of a large lead ball.  We have found them in an area where a Wiard lead base (thanks CanisterD) was found, where a 3.8" James Canister Iron Base was found, but also where 20-pdr Parrott fragments were found.  They all have "dents" in them, and they all measure .88 or .97, depending on where you place the calipers.  Hope this helps or adds to this thread.

[CanisterD]

I don't have very many lead canister balls in my 'coffee can' collection, but have hundreds of iron shot .. categoried by size, so I will go to my can of .90-.95" shot, and pick up one of my 3.5" bases, and see how those shot lay out on the base ... my opinion is they will be sloppy-loose on the base, and the normal layout puts the shot shoulder to shoulder, snug in the can ... it's certainly possible to dump the shot in loose in the can, make up the waste space with packed sawdust, put a lid on it, and make it go bang ... it was a 'no deposit-no return' kind of thing, so nobody was going to complain if it wasn't packed perfectly.  The only field caliber that my mind fixates on that could/would/should use that dia of ball is the 3" rifle.  If you take 7 pennies and lay them out 6 around 1, you will have an idea how the shot was arranged in a 'tin can'. If you look at that layout, it will be 3 in a row, 3 different directions.  Take any 3, divide the diameter of the can ( 2.9" for a 3" bore ) and you come up with .96, now you have to subtract 'something' for the thickness of the metal of the can to give you a true inside diameter of the can, so, .93 - .95" is a pretty good compromise.  But is anyone coming up with 3" rifle sabot frags?  If not, pretty good clue it isn't 3" canister.  But you and acwbullets both are coming up with almost identical lead shot, in locations where 3" frags are not providing the hoped for hints.  Must be why nobody yet has written the definitive 'know it all, answer it all' book.   DG

[callicles]

CanisterD,

I went back to my "coffee can" of all the items found near the lead ball. My brother and I have, indeed, found a splattering of 3" Hotchkiss iron fragments, 1 fuse section to a 3" Hotchkiss, and 1 or 2 lead sabot sections with deep rifle marks in them, all found "near" where the above pictured lead ball was recovered.  I had forgotten, so failed to mention that fact.  Hope that helps.

[Jim T]

Hi Ian,

We've never dug any here at G'burg.... But bunches came from nearby Maryland Heights overlooking Harpers Ferry.  Where Dean also found several Sawyer fuses.

[coonboy]

I am a bit behind in reading all of the forum post but trying to catch up. I dug a great many  of the larger lead balls at the Marshall Powder Mill in the early days. Four sizes on my caliper 1.10" 1.00" .90" and .85". I am not sure what the final use of these were but I do know that they produced quiet a few of these for some reason and they were a lot of fun to dig. One other location that I found the .90 size was at Marks Mills in 1972 with my wife. They were dented up from impact . I never knew what they were used in.  Coonboy         

[R. J. in LA]

In line with this thread, over the years we have excavated 1.1" to 1.2" lead balls among the small round lead case shot, 0.8" to 0.9" iron shot, shell fragments, bullets, etc. in an area around the battle of Fort Bisland here in south Louisiana.  Since the 1970's, numerous artillery shells, artillery shell fragments, fuzes, sabots, shot, etc. have been found in this battle area along with various types of bullets.
The battle of Fort Bisland occurred on April 12 & 13, 1863 between Union Gen. Nathaniel Banks and Confederate Gen. Richard Taylor.  Both sides fired a lot of artillery from land field pieces and gunboats.   

[misipirelichtr]

Here's a photo of the larger lead ball that I obtained from Mr. Waxham, who recovered it at the Marshall TX Powdermill.  Not quite as large as I was thinking, but it still measures .811 with a really nice sprue.  there is a .650 diameter lead ball beside the larger ball to give some idea of size

[CarlS]

That would sure give someone a headache and they would be fun to dig.  Thanks for sharing.

Is there anything Mr. Waxham hasn't found?