Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: dave h on January 21, 2014, 06:28:48 AM
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I have a question regarding .69 cal lead balls used in spherical case shot. When the shell explodes, would any (most) of the lead balls remain undamaged (if they did not hit something) and scattered, or would the explosion mangle them? The reason I ask this is that I have found intact .69 cal balls in the same proximity as shell fragments from a 12 lb. cannon ball. I am curious if the balls could have come from the spherical case, or if they were fired from a .69 musket?
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If the ball was fired from a musket it would have been mangled too, unless, of course, it was dropped. That being said, the explosive force in a case shot was small and if a ball was by the wall it is possible that the ball would not be mangled especially if the explosion happened close to the ground. Bottom line, it is possible.
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I believe that you can usually distinguish a case shot ball from a musket ball. I do think that most, if not all, lead balls from a shell get distorted. Maybe not "mangled" but most often just "dented" on multiple sides from the other balls within the shell. Size of powder charge has little to do with it...enough powder to crack the shell open is enough to mush all the balls together. Fired musket balls usually exhibit a different kind of damage without all the simple "dents."
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I have sometimes found discernable traces of asphalt (pitch) matrix are present on the ball upon examination (if from case-shot).
Horace
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I don't know if it's a reliable way to do it but I've always assumed if I found traces of tar, rough sprue marks, evidence of drilling from the powder cavity construction, etc. then it would be a case shot. I've assume that a musket ball would be nearly perfectly round and smooth if dropped (minus ground action, very small dings, etc.). If fired or from an exploded shell all bets are off since so many things can happen. Of course clear rifling marks would confirm it being a fired musket ball.
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Horace, Carl, - See the attached view of ball 1 (pic 1 and 2). I think you can see traces of tar or pitch (black). The second ball I found in the same area does not have that (ball 2 (pic 3)) and you can see the mold seam marks. The first may be from a case shot, the second maybe, or maybe a dropped .69. I do not see any indication either was fired (muzzle or ram rod marks).
Thanks - Dave
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Hi Dave:
Hard to "feel" the surface texture from the photo (assuming that the black patches are not exposed lead from a flaked off patina, and the black patches are stuck on the surface), but looks like indeed some matrix on Ball 1.
Horace
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Can you give us a measurement of diameter? A lot of the canister and case shot balls are 0.64" and the musket balls are usually larger. Some canister and case shot balls are also larger, but if it is 0.64" in diameter, its probably a case or canister shot.
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WRONG Mike Ward! :o Round shot and case shot would be the same .64-ish diameter.
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OK, I will concede the point to your abnormally large brain cavity.
But, humor me a little longer and allow me to extend my thinking in the other direction. I have coffee cans full of these lead balls and they generally fall into two big batches: Most are 0.64-.65 but a substantial quantity are around 0.67" in diameter. I had always assumed that the larger ones were musketballs. Maybe that is wrong and these are case shot because they are not in T&T. Then there are the 0.70" ones that are for the >70 cal older muskets. Those are much less common. And I won't even begin to discuss the smaller ones here.
So, there are slightly larger lead balls out there. Not sure what these above measure and now I'm not really sure what it would mean if they did prove to be slightly larger.
If, however, it turns out that the T&T unlisted 0.67" lead balls are exceptionally rare, I have a few score from the Shiloh/Corinth area which I will gladly sell to Jim but give away to the other forum members.
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I dug these lead balls that I believe are case shot. I also found shell frags nearby. They all have extreme measurements. Left one measures between 57.9 & 64.9, center one between 63.2 & 68.2, right side one between 59.5 & 66.7. They are very eneven have have flat spots on them. Two have sprues, one is very crude. They were found on the union side which means they came from confederate fire. (http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/njdigger/IMG_2385_2_zps8d6bdf55.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/njdigger/media/IMG_2385_2_zps8d6bdf55.jpg.html)
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Mike, if the .67 turn out extremely rare will you hold on to five of them for me?
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Unfortunately, I have no way to measure these to determine the exact size.
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Dave h, long ago, I had a Machinist friend of mine saw in half a 12-Pounder US Bormann Case-Shot for me. Unfortunately, right after he sawed it he dropped it on the machining-shop's concrete floor. All the black asphalt matrix and lead case-shot balls busted out and went rolling across the floor. He gathered them up and sent everything to me with an apology. I still own them. On your behalf, I checked the characterisitcs of those lead case-shot balls. They are perfectly-round, with just a small flat-spot where the casting sprue got snipped off. They have no patina, of course, having been embedded in the asphalt matrix. They uniformly measure .645-inch.
That being said... I've examined many-many other lead case-shot balls. Some are quite crudely cast, showing that the mold "side-slipped." Some (as shown in NJ Digger's photo) have a projecting casting-sprue, because unlike with musketballs there was no need for the labor of removing the sprue. Others have a slightly-raised flat-topped "belt" (NOT a mere moldseam) around them.
A great many case-shot balls show traces of black asphalt matrix remaining on them. Others, which were in a sulfur or pine-resin matrix, of course show no trace of that matrix.
Regards,
Pete
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I found this old thread and rather than start from Square One, I thought I'd ask if this might be an example of the "belt" that Pete refers to. I dug this yesterday in an area where we're finding iron canister shot from various model guns and a myriad of evidence of many types of guns in play (fall of '64). I'd never seen this before and assumed on-site that I'd dug a .69. It is rather out of round but my best attempt at a measurement is .67.
Has anyone ever seen such a belted ball in small arms ammunition?
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Yes, that is an example of the "belted" case-shot balls I've seen. It is a rare form of case-shot ball, but not what I would call super-rare. Made in a crudely shaped mold, definitely not intended as Small-Arms ammunition.
Regards,
Pete
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Thanks for the quick reply, Pete. I was hoping you might see my query, and it does me good to see you active.
I believe we're finding a lot of remnants of captured Yankee ordnance, but I suppose crudely made indicates "home grown". :)
Thanks again!
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I may have this wrong, but when reconstructing canisters I spent many hrs in conversation with canister D, and saved most of his emails for info. unfortunately, I so far have not found this exact info I remember, and of course I'm not sure Davids source, but he told me when looking for lead balls for a canister, that most would be .64 which were made for army use and paper cartridge. That what you had to beware of was the navy use balls which were .67-.68 and were bigger. "think" that was because the water use made the paper swell and too hard to load. This was a year ago conversation, so I could be wrong. could ask David again if we need to
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I did find a "belted ball" in the same area. See attached pic. This one measures approx. .47 in diameter.