MM-622 TT-123 "Bavarian Sharps"

[misipirelichtr]

Ian, Mike brought your post about the Bavarian Sharps to my attention, and your post that you felt these are not CW bullets. I am talking specifically about MM-622 and TT 123, the "Bavarian" Sharps.  While I have no idea why they are called "Bavarians", I feel absolutely certain this bullet is a CW bullet.  I've personally recovered a respectable number from CS camps associated with the Vicksburg campaign and while all of these camps have been small (a couple very small), all other relics recovered were 100% CW period.  Checking the recovery records from the camp where I have recovered about a dozen of these, other relics recovered include a local "C" CS Cavalry button, .50 Colt bullets, a thick CS Carbine Sling buckle, and four CW eagle buttons - all with CW period or earlier backmarks, .44 Colt revolver bullets, and a few period odds and ends.  I'm not a bullet expert by any means, but I'd bet my bullet collection the MM-622 is a CW period bullet.  Now having said that, it certainly might have been used abroad, or post CW or both, but where I've personally recovered it has been from CW sites.  Respectfully submitted, as per the encouragement of those who want to see a good discussion get started on this forum.

[misipirelichtr]

Aggiereb, I can't provide any insight into this being a product of the Jackson Arsenal or from a Vicksburg establsihment either for that matter - but given most of the sites I have recovered it from were pre-siege CS camps, and that the Jackson Arsenal was destroyed in late 1862, well.........might just be.  My best argument against that is I'm guessing the number actually recovered over the years would be measured in the low hundreds rather than in the thousands. 

In reading Ian's earlier post, I agree with him that Stelma 02-087 is post-war.  Stelma 02-086 is the same bullet as MM-622 and TT-123.  All of the CW examples I have recovered have a flat, solid base.

Here is the link to a well-researched article by H. Grady Howell detailing the explosion of the Jackson Arsenal http://battleofraymond.org/howell.htm

[acwbullets]

Misispirelichtr,

You are correct. Most of the Sharps are ACW. Stelma bullet number 02-087 is a post war bullet for the .50/70 trapdoor springfield. A lot of people were confused about my first post. The Stelma bullet 02-087 is listed as a Bavarian Sharps but it is not. The other ones are indeed ACW period. I have already scanned most Indian War small arms projectiles (including the experimentals) against the TT#123. Nothing seems to match and none are found out West. Plenty of Stelma's 02-087 are dug out there as well as some very rare Sharps variants.

[misipirelichtr]

Ian thanks for the note.  I was hoping to drum up a bit of discussion (Mike encouraged me) but seems we are all in agreement on this after all.  Now if someone can answer AggieReb's question about where it origninated............

[ETEX]

Mike must have thought this topic needed to be revisited to ensure his $125.00 Bavarian had not depreciated to the value of a fishing sinker . I need to go back and reread the original post because I don't recall there being an issue or doubt the MM-622 was a ACW (CS) used bullet with the number found in the V'Burg area and into Northern Mississippi. I am not aware of any found outside of V'Burg/Northern Mississippi but some had to venture across the Mississippi River into some of the Trans-Mississippi region. Any of the Arkansas/Louisiana diggers ever unearthed these beauties. A thought on origin could have been through the blockades in some of the kegs of that good ole Southern Bavarian Beer brought in to augment the Iced Tea . On a serious note the origin/arsenal of the Bavarian would add some icing to the cake.

While we are on a topic of ACW and post ACW usage lets throw the MM-636 out there for debate. My thoughts on the Rocker Base is it was definitely used in the Trans-Mississippi (Arkansas) during the ACW as well as being used out west post war (so many have come from NM and the Indian War sites). Let's hear some thoughts on this. It surprised me the Rocker Base wasn't discussed in RBTRF IV.

[tom buckley]

It looks like I can put the MM622/TT123 back on my list of bullets to save up for.

[misipirelichtr]

AggieReb, to answer your earlier question, I've not seen any Jackson Arsenal relics in collections I've had the priviledge to view, and I don't recall any exhibited in the Old Capital State History Museum in Jackson either.  But next time I'm in Jackson with a bit of time to spare I'll go by there and do a bit of inquiring. 

I can  report I have two variants of the MM-622 - at least enough variation that I have them classified as two variants.  One has wider "bands" than the other one.  Both variants were recovered at the same small CS camp.  I will post photos this weekend.

[misipirelichtr]

As promised, here is a photo of my two MM-622 Bavarian variants.  The bullet on the left is the "classic MM-622, measuring out at .900 x .535.  The bullet on the right is the variant - it measures .930 x .542, and you can see the thicker tie ring and the thicker "bands".  Both of these came from the same CS Cavalry camp, and I've recovered more than one of each there.

[ETEX]

I have attached a picture of two MM-622 Bavarian Sharps. The one on the left measures .535 x .913 x 394 with the one on the right measuring .540 x .926 x 413 and dug in the Vicksburg area. The one on the left I do not have a solid enough providence on it to say where it was dug for certainty.